tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post5975470409304065169..comments2024-03-21T08:00:48.696-07:00Comments on No Shortage of Dreams: What If Apollo Astronauts Became Marooned in Lunar Orbit? (1968)Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-46734486943347584202015-08-25T18:51:00.514-07:002015-08-25T18:51:00.514-07:00Seems I've been missing out on a very interest...Seems I've been missing out on a very interesting discussion. Sometimes I regret writing this blog because it means I have to move on and let the comment be at some point or nothing gets written. But then if I didn't write the blog there'd be no comments. This circularity gives me a headache.<br /><br />The lunar science community in 1961 comprised kooks and some very talented people.David S. F. Portreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15818906581595028816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-54125423740136379042015-08-25T12:37:56.184-07:002015-08-25T12:37:56.184-07:00Still that's all applied science, not pure sci...Still that's all applied science, not pure science. Both the U.S. and Soviet programs were designed and funded primarily as political contests, not scientific research. <br /><br />I clearly agree. Different goals. Berlin Airlift, Arms Race, Sputnik implications, U2 shoot-down, Cuban Missile Crisis, MAD, Vietnam, Peace through Strength, and all that. A different time. A different propaganda. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17639020344662007725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-66061892701171067892015-08-25T07:45:37.360-07:002015-08-25T07:45:37.360-07:00Oh, no question - the engineering accomplishments ...Oh, no question - the engineering accomplishments of the Space Race - the manned programs and the probes of the various NASA labs - are simply staggering. It still astounds me that we could go from Explorer to Apollo 11 in just 11 years using...well, slide rules. That the Apollo CSM main computer could travel a half million mile round trip and enter and exit lunar orbit with precision with less Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-33864227142396138252015-08-24T19:40:58.351-07:002015-08-24T19:40:58.351-07:00How much science was really done by Mercury and Ge...How much science was really done by Mercury and Gemini? How much was really done by Ranger? <br /><br />Truly the science in these cases was engineering. Could we put all these parts together and make them work in the most hostile environment ever tried? Apollo, with some trial and error (Apollo 1, Apollo 13) basically proved repeatability of experiments of flying people to the Moon. Simple goal,Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02132166891893048907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-40450752371210107702015-08-24T18:17:32.941-07:002015-08-24T18:17:32.941-07:00Well, if you really want to get down to it, Apollo...Well, if you really want to get down to it, Apollo itself was really just a stunt of sorts, too, wasn't it? <br /><br />To be blunt: a flags-and-footprints program, designed with the sole objective of not only putting a man on the Moon and returning him safely to the Earth before an arbitrary deadline, but doing so before the Soviets did, too. Any science that might be extracted from it was aAthelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-79729102444386287962015-08-24T18:03:07.864-07:002015-08-24T18:03:07.864-07:00It baffles me (I understand the political why, but...<i>It baffles me (I understand the political why, but still...) why the Soviets in their plodding method like they did for space stations, did not go and at least orbit the Moon and operate there after Apollo.</i><br /><br />Conflicting agendas. Lack of clear direction from the political leadership. Ironic from a centrally planned economy - dictatorship, not to put too fine a point on it - but Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-73980531396576695182015-08-24T14:57:58.280-07:002015-08-24T14:57:58.280-07:00My thoughts on all the "Firsts":
First ...My thoughts on all the "Firsts":<br /><br />First satellite in orbit: Beep-beep, no science. And ABMA could have launched Explorer 1 a year before.<br /><br />First probe in in circumlunar space: Lunik 3 did miss the moon by more then 6,000 kilometres. <br /><br />First probe impact on the Moon: The first pictures were done by the Ranger program on a mission profile like this.<br /><br dgbrthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08444761728758364208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-69573690333299242152015-08-24T07:45:15.852-07:002015-08-24T07:45:15.852-07:00Hi Athelstane -
So this is where my perception an...Hi Athelstane -<br /><br />So this is where my perception and fall-off of the Soviets begins. But I think I understand why. When the Soviets switched focus from the Moon to near earth with Salyut, they wanted to best the US in space station technology and experience.<br /><br />With the political leadership focusing on propaganda "firsts", they achieved these per their goals. However, Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17639020344662007725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-66631779643629306992015-08-24T07:28:18.899-07:002015-08-24T07:28:18.899-07:00Ha. Yes. I know, FOOT-ball. Sorry, we stole the te...Ha. Yes. I know, FOOT-ball. Sorry, we stole the term. Another debate, another blog, I think.<br /><br />To your point, I too, cannot see budgets matching proposals these days. What will need to happen, what will likely happen, is a disruptive technology which will change the economics.<br /><br />My guesses...<br />1) Highly versatile robotics, construction-oriented, if not self-replicating, on Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17639020344662007725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-42702726729155633352015-08-23T08:17:14.556-07:002015-08-23T08:17:14.556-07:00P.S. I don't want to overly characterize the a...P.S. I don't want to overly characterize the apparent scrubbed Soviet Zond mission in December 1968; we don't know exactly why it was scrubbed, or even how close to came to being approved; all we know is that the Soviets were trying, right up to the last minute, to the point of getting a mated booster and capsule to the launch pad. And indeed, out of seven test missions to date, only one Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-37144407465757774062015-08-23T08:03:28.201-07:002015-08-23T08:03:28.201-07:00All the Soviet firsts in space is a myth.
It may...<i>All the Soviet firsts in space is a myth. </i><br /><br />It may have been overwrought, but it wasn't entirely a myth. From the moment Sputnik launched, the Soviets demonstrated a substantive lead in heavy lift, one which they kept through the mid-60's. And there were firsts: first satellite in orbit. First probe in in circumlunar space. First probe impact on the Moon. First soft Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-63089547010004978952015-08-23T05:21:37.040-07:002015-08-23T05:21:37.040-07:00All the Soviet firsts in space is a myth. First sc...All the Soviet firsts in space is a myth. First science in space was done by the US, not Sputnik or Laika (poor dog). And the first orbital flight could have been accomplished in September 1956, if ABMA would have been granted to do so.<br /><br />The first manned flights by the soviets were much more risky and they had many luck not loosing a cosmonaut. And when NASA did start Gemini the sovietsdgbrthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08444761728758364208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-46105337876207764952015-08-22T22:20:16.608-07:002015-08-22T22:20:16.608-07:00To get back to Ben's question: There were inde...To get back to Ben's question: There were indeed only two (unmanned) Zond missions that managed circumlunar flights before December 1968, along with five more that . . . didn't manage that much. Zond 5 managed the feat in September 1968, returning some Russian tortoises alive, though its failed skip reentry would have been rough on any cosmonauts. Zond 6 in November managed to Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-19123511474032095392015-08-22T13:31:02.923-07:002015-08-22T13:31:02.923-07:00Just for fun: The real football is soccer. At Amer...Just for fun: The real football is soccer. At American Football the players can use their hands. Is that football? US citizens are still funny, it's like using miles, inches, gallons, ... much more. No one outside of the US will ever understand the culture.<br /><br />But more serious to David:<br />You said "EOR or Direct Ascent would have been better...". I disagree on this dgbrthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08444761728758364208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-49466721981595808232015-08-21T12:52:42.897-07:002015-08-21T12:52:42.897-07:00Hi David:
Football reference in the sense that th...Hi David:<br /><br />Football reference in the sense that the US in the 60s was WAY more dominant in technological competition than the Soviets appeared to be. The US program was generally robust with Saturn V and Apollo, while N-1 was a horrible failure, and Soyuz/Zond was only sort of coming together piecemeal after the early successes (firsts) of Vostok/Voskhod. Technical consistency and Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17639020344662007725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-40139336075187828732015-08-21T09:33:03.212-07:002015-08-21T09:33:03.212-07:00Ben:
Your comment made me laugh - I only rarely f...Ben:<br /><br />Your comment made me laugh - I only rarely follow sports, so I have no idea what your "New England Patriots" reference means. My late wife joked that I have the popular culture knowledge of a turnip. I always thought that was insulting to turnips. I miss her occasional "what is happening in mainstream culture" briefings.<br /><br />But anyway, your points 2 andDavid S. F. Portreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15818906581595028816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-75262584000141212042015-08-21T08:02:17.841-07:002015-08-21T08:02:17.841-07:00Hi David:
I did go look up Zond. I actually had f...Hi David:<br /><br />I did go look up Zond. I actually had forgotten about that. Looks like Zonds 5&6 really put the scare into the US government, but in reading the performance details, the Soviets were on such shaky technical and reliability ground, that they dared not putting a human aboard for fear the Proton rocket would detonate in flight or their guys would not make it safely back to Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17639020344662007725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-2476793613034359842015-08-20T08:46:34.190-07:002015-08-20T08:46:34.190-07:00Ben:
NASA never seriously considered circumlunar ...Ben:<br /><br />NASA never seriously considered circumlunar Gemini, though the concept was studied along with so many others. As I recall, Pete Conrad was a fan of the concept. Astronauts in those days had enough clout to get studies of their pet projects done, but that didn't mean anyone would sanction hardware development and flight. Jack Schmitt's Tsiolkovskii mission was another David S. F. Portreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15818906581595028816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6633940777526327846.post-28369005304029942012015-08-20T07:16:48.801-07:002015-08-20T07:16:48.801-07:00"Putting off the next Apollo flight until the..."Putting off the next Apollo flight until the LM was ready would have placed in jeopardy the goal of landing a man on the moon ahead of the Soviet Union and before the end of the 1960s."<br /><br />Hi David,<br /><br />We have the benefit of time and perspective, but it's truly humbling to remember in 1968 we had no solid clue what the Soviets could or would do. The 50s/60s era was Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17639020344662007725noreply@blogger.com